The Liturgy

[Christian Baalsen]

Please tell me that I'm not the only young person out there who loves the Traditional Liturgy. It seems that all the people promoting the contemporary "worship" because "it's what the youth want" are more than 40, themselves. There seems to be a movement today to adapt God to society, instead of the other way around. We should set out to worship in a way acceptable to God, not ourselves. I know I might have ruffled a few feathers here, but please respond with your thoughts.

[Erin]

I have to say, I am a fan of the Traditional Liturgy as well. I've grown to enjoy the contemporary worship, however, the traditional is still my favorite. I grew up with it, and just really enjoy it. I'm one of the few young people I think who will get up to go to the early service because it's the traditional one.

[Christian Baalsen]

Hey Erin. As we both go to Holy Trinity, I think we both have an understanding of the services. The thing with me (and I'm sure you would agree) is that the Lutheran Church is not in its nature what you would call an "inclusive" church. We retained almost all the Catholic traditions (something that most are afraid to say) and many aspect of the Roman Catholic church. Mantillas, traditional mass vestments, mass in the old languages, censers, chants, etc were present in Lutheran Churches until the twentieth century, and it's a shame they were taken away. Though it seems that my generation is moving closer and closer to getting the tradition back, there are still many obstacles to overcome. We cannot let ourselves become like the Methodists and Baptists, where the emphasis is on the individual experience and not Christ, but the fine line that used to exist is becoming more and more blurred.

[Katy Resop]

I love traditional worship too, as well as all sorts of worship styles. I like to get creative about praising Christ! I definitely agree that rituals and traditions aren't all bad, and in fact, when explored together deeply as a community are very positive and effective in faith formation! They certainly shouldn't be "written off" as ineffective or "out-of-touch" but I think some people do worship in different ways. I definitely think it'd be beneficial for church communities to consider ALL voices when planning worships so that the youth voice is heard too, not just assumed. You make a great point there.

Overall, I think the most important thing about worship is that it is an offering and sacrifice to God of our time and talents. So as long as we're there to serve God, yay!

Christian, you may want to check out another "ning" site started by Augsburg Fortress... it's ALL ABOUT worship... www.creativeworshiptour.com. I think you should definitely share some of these thoughts with the folks who joined that site!

[Erin Daubert]

Well, I know you're not the only young adult loving it! One of my closest friends loves traditional liturgy. As something he has grown up with, he is passionate about and enjoys, a way he best connects with God. And there's something to be said for that.

I, on the other hand, enjoy large varieties of worship styles. I don't mind contemporary or "traditional" worship on occasion, but am more drawn to repetition and ritual. Spirituality as a focus is more important to me when I am worshiping than anything else. Unfortunately, in most Lutheran services, traditional or contemporary, I find deep spirituality missing and I have to turn to different places to find it.

So, while I know there are young adults who love contemporary liturgy and other young adults who still love tradition (do not fear!) I think people are searching for what they best connect to.

What bothered me about your discussion start was this: "There seems to be a movement today to adapt God to society, instead of the other way around. We should set out to worship in a way acceptable to God, not ourselves." I feel that this is a very misguided statement. As Lutherans, we have adapted our style of worship over time. Traditional Jewish worship changed into traditional Catholic worship which evolved into traditional Lutheran worship which has now transformed into "traditional liturgy." Over the centuries, what has been seen as "traditional" has been changing and adapting to society. "Traditional liturgy" now usually has a piano or organ, something that wouldn't have been around when Christian worship began. Services are in English, far from the tradition of Latin or Greek. Services are normally in an hour, far from the hours upon hours of worship. One of Luther's main purposes was to "contemporize" the Catholic mass. The Lutheran tradition is built upon the concept of church evolving to meet the needs of people! The Bible was translated into German so that people could interpret things for themselves and the word of God could better connect to them as everyday people in society. I believe God made humans in God's image and therefore, I believe, would want people to worship in their own way as they would most feel comfortable. I feel closest to God when I am spiritually reflective, some feel closest to God while dancing to interpretive dance in contemporary service, and others feel the power of God in traditional hymns.

While I respect that you feel so strongly about continuing traditional liturgy and that is how you feel you you are best able to worship God, I don't think there is not one "acceptable" way to worship God. Each person brings with them a unique background, variety of gifts, and likes and dislikes that would draw them to their own style of worship and, by making us each individuals, I think God respects and almost expects that. God wants us to each strive to find the best way to live out God's word.

[Christian Baalsen]

I'm sure you probably know of Luther's quote "Ecclesia semper reformanda est," but the problem I have with the contemporary service is the sheer lack of theology present. It should be remembered that the focus of worship is on Christ, and worship centered on the individual is Gnostacism, a dangerous heresy condemned by the church in the Ecumenical Councils (which the ELCA has made a point to accept). This worship (in all the times I've seen it) turns the focus to "me." Jesus my friend, Jesus my savior. The traditional liturgy sends the focus back on Christ. It's not that I don't accept change; it's just that a line has to be drawn somewhere. Whenever people say that traditions turn attention to the celebrant, I have to explain the whole in persona Christi thing that most people just can't understand. There is just a need to turn the attention in the liturgy where it belongs.

[Katy Resop]

I agree completely that worship should be focused on Christ. I've various contemporary worship styles do both a good and bad job at doing this! I think worship is worship when it's communal and focused on Christ. So if that can be done in contemporary settings, I'm all for it! (i.e., I worked a camp counselor for 3 summers... camp worship is not your average Sunday worship at a Lutheran church, but it's still very theological and grounded in the Lutheran aspects of worship).

[Erin Daubert]

I totally agree with you both. Bad contemporary worship has often lost sight of some of the core values of Christianity and the purpose of worship. However, I think this generalization is limited to the modern idea of "mega-church contemporary." At one congregation I have visited, the contemporary service means that there is a different version of the Lord's prayer, a variety of instruments from clarinet to bass guitar to drums to electric guitar, and new beats and styles to the songs. The hymns still maintain the same ideas and often the same lyrics as traditional hymns and the prayers are still focused on God, not on the concept of "me me me." Contemporary simply means "modern" or "of this age," so it can encompass a variety of styles and traditions. By grouping traditional liturgy as good and contemporary liturgy as bad, the idea is that creative evolution in services can never occur to match the times. I strongly believe people should experiment with worship styles to find what engages them instead of assuming that a "carbon-copy service" is the best way to worship and most appropriate for everyone. No, the focus of worship cannot be on ourselves, but God speaks to people in different ways and that is often brought out in worship styles.

[Christian Baalsen]

I can see that you both are from Illinois, and therefore may have a different view of contemporary worship than I do. In the South, churches feel pressed to keep up with the Baptists and the Methodists by turning into them. Even the Catholics, and occasionally Orthodox) fall into this typ of "worship." There are a lot of what many of us like to call "Julie" songs that circulate. They're called by that name, because if you change the name "Jesus" to "Julie" in those songs, the song is about sex, period. There is no other interpretation. I do not have much against the contemporary services (as I don't know if I can call it a "liturgy") except for one principle which the church has in former times vigorously tried to uphold. The catholic church. It means having the same service universally, same music universally, same sacraments, rituals, traditions everywhere in the world. That feeling has fallen to the wayside as modernism overwhelms not only the church, but the rest of society. People sixty or seventy years ago wouldn't have dared dress like we do today, as it has been condemned many times in the history of the Church. There are also things that you can just think about. Consider these two confessions back to back, and think which is really more appropriate in a setting when God is physically present.

"Okay God,
we like to be right.
We like to have clear-cut answers.
Those ten commandments are pretty clear,
yet even those challenge us each and every day.
Your law of love is clear more often than not,
yet living love on a daily basis is tough work.
Forgive us for the times
when we know precisely what we should do,
and we do the complete opposite.
Forgive us when we knowingly wander,
and guide us back when we are simply lost.
Help us always press on
toward your path of love and grace,
creating and molding our small bricks
in the building that is your realm upon this earth.
Amen."

"Almighty God, merciful Father:
I, a troubled and penitent sinner, confess to you
all my sins and iniquities with which I have offended you
and for which I justly deserve your punishment.
But I am sorry for them and repent of them
and pray for your boundless mercy.
For the sake of the suffering and death of your Son, Jesus Christ,
be gracious and merciful to me, a poor sinful being;
forgive my sins,
give me your Holy Spirit for the amendment of my sinful life,
and bring me to life everlasting.

or even better

"I confess to Almighty God,
to blessed Mary ever Virgin,
to blessed Michael, the Archangel,
to blessed John the Baptist,
to the holy Apostles Peter and Paul,
to all the Saints and to you, brothers (and to you Father),
that I have sinned exceedingly,
in thought, word and deed:
through my fault,
through my fault,
through my most grievous fault.
Therefore I beseech the blessed Mary,
ever Virgin,
blessed Michael the Archangel,
blessed John the Baptist,
the holy Apostles Peter and Paul,
all the Saints, and you, Father,
to pray to the Lord our God for me.
Amen."

You can see that there are some things to be said in church, and some that shouldn't. Finally, we arrive at the matter of tradition, that old nemesis of all reformed churches (Thank God Lutherans aren't reformed, though many of us like to pretend it). Tradition has been sent down for what the Apostle Paul (ora pro ecclesia nostri) called "good order." It's there to keep the Church from becoming a mess. Traditions are being broken right and left in contemporary liturgies, from doing away with the sign of the cross to sitting during the Gospel to celebrants without stoles to liturgical dancing (Good Lord, when does it stop?) I like to quote a Catholic cardinal from South Africa on the matter of Liturgical dancing. "In African Churches, dancing in the liturgy can be permitted because it is part of there culture and is a symbol of praise and thanksgiving. In Western Churches, however, it should not even be thought of, as in Western culture, dancing is a sign of egocentrism, not praise." You have to be able to see where I'm coming from. I don't think you can find a contemporary service without a liturgical abuse of some sort. Another of my worst objections is clapping. In the words of St. Augustine (ora pro ecclesia nostri) "When clapping enters the liturgy, the solemnity has left."

[Erin Daubert]

I think there is a difference in understanding of what worship is between us. According to the ELCA church, "There is a basic pattern for worship among Lutherans. We gather. We encounter God’s Word. We share a meal at the Lord’s table. And we are sent into the world. But we do not think about worship so much in terms of what we do. Worship is fundamentally about what God is doing and our response to God’s action. Worship is an encounter with God, who saves us through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. God’s Spirit calls us together. God speaks to us through readings from the Old and New Testaments of the Bible, through preaching, prayer, and song. God feeds and nourishes us in a saving way. And God blesses us and sends us in mission to the world. " elca.org

According to Lutheran tradition, worship simply means that it is a time to focus on and encounter God, confess our transgressions, thank God for all God has done for us, and listen for what God can and will do in our lives. We encounter the word and sacrament in worship, but the rest of worship can certainly be varied. Dancing can be acceptable in a Lutheran church. Clapping can be acceptable at a Lutheran church. Whether the Catholic cardinal from South Africa understands it or not, these signs of joy ARE symbols of praise and thanksgiving in almost every culture, including the United States, and for all God has given us, we have every right to praise and thank him with all our minds and bodies and souls during worship. If God gave someone the gift of dance, shouldn't they please God by dancing and praising God with this gift in worship? God wouldn't want them to hide this gift that was given to them!

Saying that we are a catholic church does not mean that our worship style is universal, but instead that our theology is universal. Someone in China preaching in Chinese in a Lutheran congregation would have a very different worship service than someone from Canada worshiping in French in a Lutheran congregation. Even the concept of "traditional liturgy" would vary greatly. So, already, we are limiting our idea of "traditional liturgy" to simply what Lutherans in the United States would consider to be "traditional." Worship should not be limited by the idea that someone who shares the same theology should have to share the same taste in worship style. Every worshiping person who shares in the same theological ideals is a member of the catholic church, but can worship in their own way. God does not require us to be solemn during worship and, in fact, in the Bible, David and all of Israel worshiped God by singing songs, and playing lyres, harps, tambourines, cymbals, and trumpets, using and joy and praise in worship instead of sorrow and solemnity (1 Chr 13:8).

God reminds us in Psalms 29:13 that "they honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. And their worship of me is nothing but man-made rules learned by rote." For many, traditional liturgy means following religious routines set out by others. Changing tradition to be more contemporary (in the sense that it is simply new, evolving, and different) gives people an opportunity to use their own gifts in church and begin to think about God in their own way. While a traditional liturgy works well for some, it is not for everyone. The opportunity for someone to play the guitar in service allows them to use the gifts God gave them in church. By having children perform a skit instead a sermon one week allows youth to begin thinking about God's role in their own lives. Instead of singing the words of the older, memorized lyrics of traditional hymns, new songs give congregants a chance to think about new lyrics and what they really mean. If worship becomes a series of man-made rules where things HAVE to be a certain way because that is tradition, God is asking us to change it. We shouldn't feel constricted or forced into routine by worship, but worship should be the opposite... in psalms, God is urging us to feel empowered by it. Worship should give us the opportunity to focus on God so that afterward we feel refreshed enough to continue God's mission in our daily lives. The Bible tells us to feel close to God when worshiping and if traditional rules don't provide that, than people have every God-given right to search for a new type of worship.

God made each and every one of us unique. I believe that God made us unique so that we can embrace creativity and learn to accept things that are different instead of keeping a tunnel-vision view of the world and what church "should" be. We have different races, genders, ethnicities, cultures, life-experiences, and so much more. God gave us these unique qualities so that we can each add something to and work towards God's vision of the perfect world and I think God would want us to each use our own gifts to worship in a way that was not routine, but engaging in its own way every time.

[Munyengetero]

I would want to bring you guys greetings from Africa. I'm just fascinated by your robust discussion, and i'd want to provide my own contribution as well because i think it may bring something for you guys to think about.

I'd want to just say that your concern, Christian, is noted, and i think it's a good concern. Why i'm saying so is simply that it's very easy to unconsciously deviate from real worship if we do not pose and ask ourselves if the way we worship is proper worship. So i think it is important to always ask that question.

Having said that, i think, even before we discuss what "kind" of worship to adopt, we should ask ourselves what the purpose of worship is. And i'd want to say that Erin has done a good job in trying to put worship into perspective. I'd just want to add to that and say that it's important that we be clear about definitions. Of course different church bodies would give different definitions of worship. But even then, the definition given here by Erin touches the core of worship, in my view. In another version, which follows Erin's definition in scope, would define worship as the reverent love and allegiance accorded a deity, idol or sacred object. The Greek words for worship combine the ideas of "falling down before," "paying homage to," and "serving." From these definitions it is obvious that worship involves recognition of worth in God, and the offering of our honor, praise, and adoration to the One who is altogether worthy.

This definition leads us to consider the purpose of worship. This is important because it strikes at the very purpose of the church. The health of our personal and congregational worship reflects our personal and congregational relationship to God. Also, knowing the purpose of worship helps us determine a "healthy" way of worship.

To worship genuinely is to know God. To know God genuinely is to be in a king-subject relation ship with Him. In worship we acknowledge God's kingship in our lives and His right to rule over us. Worship is for God's benefit. He has the center stage. During worship we yield ourselves to God's rule and dominion. 1 Chronicles 29:10-13 gives us a biblical description and correct focus of worship:

Praise be to you, 0 Lord, God of our father Israel, from everlasting to ever lasting. Yours, O Lord, is the greatness and power and the glory and the majesty and the splendor, for every thing in heaven and earth is yours. Yours, O Lord, is the kingdom; you are exalted as head over all. Wealth and honor come from you; you are the ruler of all things. In your hands are strength and power to exalt and give strength to all. Now, our God, we give you thanks, and praise your glorious name.

Misunderstandings about the real purpose of worship have contributed to sterile congregational worship and have devastated the potential for growth in many churches. One of the factors that account for our misunderstandings concerning worship is as follows:

1. Our post-modern cultures: You have a point Christian by decrying the speed at which we're transforming our churches. Some churches here in Africa, being influenced by American pentecostalism, have, replaced the cross with National flags. One can see that the centre of worship here is being tempered with.

However, human beings still remain deeply cultural, and every activity of the body is highly cultural. And cultures differ significantly. So it would not be safe, i think, to argue that there should be one umbrella liturgy for the whole of Christendom. Yes, you're right Christian that the Christian Church is Catholic. But, as Erin has correctly stated, being catholic means that we belong to one family, the Kingdom of God that has been and is being established by Christ. It's a theological universality. But it embraces diversity as well.

I hope that this discussion will stimulate more discussion. Be blessed!

[Christopher]

My thoughts of the moment...felt the need to edit.

I think that you make good points in feeling that people can stereo-type young adults as preferring one form of worship service.

As far as worship. I personally enjoy traditional church music, contemporary music, and being pretty concerned about issues of ethnicity I wouldn't mind seeing more services that incorporate aspects of other culture groups. We can have a tendency to negate the experience of worship in the lives of other ethnicities or nationalities or maintain our tendency to make Jesus overly white and European than he truly is.

I am coming from a slightly different place with this than
many people. I know that I struggle with coming out of studies in Theology and returning to my home town congregation that has moved towards the Willow Creek Mega-Church, "seeker sensitive" model of church. I won't go into all the intricacies of that struggle or the issues involved and angels of thought. I am also sure that one can overly-generalize these churches rather than one's own experience amidst particular ones. I do think, however, that you are correct in saying that there can at times be a tendency to adapt God to society or to conform to society rather than the other way around.

I do think that there can be cases of churches turning into entertainment and the question becomes who has the best show out rather than who is leading us down the right path.
My major concerns, which I won’t get into here would be other than the type of music played. I question more other aspects and I am probably seeing this through experiences in a particular church. However, I think that you have valid concerns. While it is LCMS, this is one of the first credible online sources I found in relation to it and it did touch upon worship styles.
http://www.ctsfw.edu/library/files/pb/1176

[Alyce]

Amen brother! As a seminarian (and HOPEFULLY a future pastor), liturgy has been on my mind lately. It's interesting going to services and looking down at an old favorite hymn and realizing all of a sudden that Spanish lyrics were added!

Change can be good, but I think we need to ask ourselves: What are we striving to do with this? For example, simply singing in Spanish won't, in my opinion fill the pews with droves of Spanish-speakers, and in the same context, switching to a "youth-inspired service" won't drive in the young ones in an instant. This takes time, and I think in the ELCA, we need to continue to not only change with the times, but appreciate our rich history of great hymns.

Personally, I love traditional Lutheran liturgy, but that's just me. On the other hand, though, I love Gospel music and would love to see some of that in the Lutheran ranks; to get people moving! I think what the church needs to do, if it truly wants a youth-inspired identity and service, needs to take the public relations approach and, well, determine their target audience and ASK THEM! I think you are incredibly astute in recognizing that those pushing for a contemporary service in an effort to compete with bigger, perhaps more fundamental churches, church leaders are pre-supposing what would attract youth. We need to ask them what would draw them in, as well as their parents! As you mentioned, most people want a religion today that perhaps clothes itself in a Starbucks mug: Low fat, low foam latte made in five seconds. Extra hot. To go. Once religion becomes a commodity, there's no reason to stick to some the old liturgy (or, in the coffee metaphor, the drip coffee machine). It's all about finding a balance.